I want you to think back to a time before modular FF tubes, when ARMS was still "the shit," and before aggregate MagPul merchandise became the ultimate arbiter of "operator-ness."  


















Special thanks to members M700shooter for the "old handguard [he] found in a parts box," and Bama-Shooter for the Lonestar Ordnance grip.  

Not 100% sure how I'm  going to configure it in the end - but it's an old raised "C," Cardinal Forge M4 upper in charcoal gray without "T" marks, a Colt RO921 ("wasp-waist" M4 profile) barrel, and a modified Armalite FF tube, like the one pictured in Kyle Lamb's "Green Eyes & Black Rifles."  



Just threw her together today, and there are definitely some "non-period correct" parts installed for the time being, then again, I'm not entirely certain what "period" I'll ultimately settle on, currently it's just "circa between 1999-2004":

- Current model KAC M4QD comp: should be old-style "round latch" QD comp for the first generation M4QDSS, probably will not change that as the older KAC cans and mounts are nearly impossible to find these days, and I currently have an NT4, though taupe, that can be used with it.

- EOTech 552.A65 Rev. F: have been been on the lookout for an affordable, if beat up 551 or 511, which would be more correct, but it's not necessarily a priority at the moment - the 552's not strictly wrong IMHO, and while Rev. F is a little more "modern," given that it's more of an internal electronics mod, I'm unconcerned.

- The lower is a Colt flat black MT6400C lower, I'm hoping to get a gray early A2-forging lower to match if I can find a decent deal on a '90s vintage Colt lower, but y'all know how the NFA thing is going these days, and I doubt I will pin this upper ever, so it will probably stay mismatched for a long while yet.  A gray McKay lower could be an alternative, too, but would be a modern forging pattern

- rear sight is a KAC 300m BUIS, which is correct - however, I think I may switch it out for an ARMS #40L that I have in the parts box

- light is a Surefire G2 Nitrolon in tan in a modern VTAC mount - I do have an older vintage black VTAC mount that more resembles the parts that were seen on originals, and will probably replace it with a black Surefire 6P body with older Classic series bezel, just seems more "vintage-y."  Light and KAC VFG are configured to be used in the "traditional" "chicken-choke" grip, with the thumb wrapped around to active the light button, seems only appropriate for the build

- charging handle is a PRI M84 GasBuster, I'm honestly not sure exactly when they were introduced, but given that they were specified for SPR uppers fairly early on, I believe it could be considered "period correct," nevertheless, I'm considering grabbing an older-style Badger extended latch to install on a standard charging handle

- stock is an older Colt N/1 marked fiberlite stock

I still need to find one of the older "sawtooth" style rubber CAR buttpads to zip-tie to the stock, as well an older, "Uncle Mike's" style QD sling loop to attach to the swivel that came with the handguards.  I'll be using a padded M60 stock that I hope to eventually modify with an ALICE-pack strap to make a "pre-VTAC" sling.  

I would like, one day to find a KAC MRE rail, and perhaps move this FF tube to an RO727 build, but the MREs are rare as hen's teeth these days, and I missed the last one I saw for sale due to an optic purchase at right around the same time.  

I also have a Gen. 1 Redi-Mag that I may try out on it.

Couple of thoughts:

Just put this together today, so it hasn't been fired yet, will probably test fire it tomorrow, and will update.

However, just having gotten her together, my initial impressions are quite positive, on the one hand, though I like to post a lot in the clone threads - most of my clones are practical rifles first and clones second - this carbine on the other hand, was built solely for clone's-sake, in the spirit of the Retro Forum, if not matching the time-period, as such, it has more in common with my XM16E1 clone than with my M4A1 clones, and was, for the most part, cobbled together out of spare parts I already had lying around.

That being said, perhaps it's because most of my current 14.5" barreled carbines use RO921HB barrels with railed forearms, even with the NT4 installed, the carbine feels surprisingly light.  I've gone on record multiple times saying I prefer nose-heavy rifles, and still do for "social" use, but it's still nice to have a nice light carbine to play with - I'd liken it to the two RO723 clones I used to have - one with a lightweight .625 barrel, and one with the later, heavier A2 .750 barrel - I ultimately found the .750 slightly more enjoyable to shoot, but the .625 barrel was a dream to carry and hold.

After having left the "chicken-choke" grip behind years ago in favor of other holds, I was surprised by how comfortable the grip was revisiting it for the "clone-style" of firing grip.  Once again, like the nose-heavy rifle, having experimented for years, and modified my technique in favor of other methods that simply worked better in live fire exercises, it's still interesting to re-visit the "old ways."  

Finally - some notes on the handguard -

Not that I ever lacked even the slightest bit of respect for the armorers that built these kinds of "custom" weapons, assembling the handguard to the upper, I was once again impressed by the ingenuity and innovation of both the users and armorers.  Today, we've got so many handguard options, and so many developments, we forget sometimes that someone had to think of them in the first place.  Putting everything together, I was impressed at the minds that could even conceive of, much less figure out how to make the idea a reality.  Honestly, it was not an easy handguard to assemble, and I've assembled quite a few - I thought that the RIS II FSP was tricky if not difficult, but this one was interesting.

Most striking was getting the gas tube into the FSB and installing the roll pin:

The FSB had to be dropped into the FSP pocket, and the gas tube lined up from the rear of the handguard, then jimmied into position, with the roll pin hole lining up, and hammered in at an angle, then the entire, stripped barrel slid in after it, and the taper pins installed through the holes in the tube, after lining everything up together, mostly by feel.  

Anyways - that's all for now - sorry for the relatively few photos tonight - but hopefully tomorrow I should have more, and better detailed photographs, and at least a preliminary range report and rough zeroing (local indoor range that I usually use for test-fires only goes to 15 yards ).  

~Augee

When I was looking at it, I was going to ask how much fun you had doing this.

Pretty damn cool!  We take a lot for granted, these days.

Posting this topic was more difficult than actually building the rifle... not sure what the hell was going wrong with my computer and browser... sheesh.  

Thanks for the kind words, even before I managed to change the title from "Technical Difficulties."  

~Augee

Pretty cool.

Sometimes I still miss the days of thinking 2 pound rail systems were cool, and that the TA01 was the best optic made. Add in the cheek riser for the standard CAR stock with the slip on butt pad. Gosh I felt cool back then.

I didn't even use weapon lights back then. Mostly because my buddy had a Saiga that ate up those old shiney black 60 lumen Surefires like they were going out of style. Even when they were working I think the battery life was like 15 minutes or something terrible like that.


I'd still like to get an old school Bushmaster Modular Carbine and a DPMS Arctic Panther. I remember seeing them in Shotgun News and deciding I wanted to finaly give the AR platform a try.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane. Great clone patterned after a rifle used by a great warrior. That rifle was way ahead of it's time in many concepts.

really really cool.  I like that tube a lot.

BRAVO!

Now, I want to see you clone the Sawyer rifle...



...because I actually want to know what bits are on there. What kind of FF tube? Is that the one CF tube you have to epoxy on?


Maybe you should start a "90's-2000's SF clone rifle" thread

I like it!  I run a CAR stock as well, as as tempted as I am to go to a B5, not sure I am ready to give it up.  Very much a purposeful, KISS rifle.  Good job.

op...love the tube...u got an extra

CAR stock for the win!!!

Its an early standard old school aluminum floater tube, with a rail mounted for add ons.  Reece rifle style.  Allot of that type of rifle  were used in the late 80s-mid 90s.  Looks like he has an OPS inc. suppressor.

Regards

Im REALLY diggin this build Aug. Well done brother!

Type N stocks are boss...

Where did you find the tube?

Joe is referring to the photo of Craig Sawyer's "recce."  

The FF tube pictured on my rifle in the OP is an old-style Armalite tube, no longer produced, modified either by, or in the style of certain specialized units in the late 1990s, early 2000s.  I "found" it in the possession of a member who had acquired it during that time-frame in the Fayetteville, NC area, and had it in a parts box, and was kind enough to allow me to acquire the otherwise obsolete and neglected handguard.  

~Augee

Range Photos:









^ This is a harder photograph to take then I imagined... it's the first time I've tried a "reticule pic," and used my iPhone - trying to balance the rifle, and put the sight on the target and center the camera is much easier said than done... I guess that's what I get for taking so long to get on the "cool guy pic" train.  

Range report and more detail photos to come soon.

~Augee

Needs to be thrown down the driveway a few more times


Pretty cool build. Dont see one like this very often.

Really cool.

Yes, very cool ! Something about that green tube screams " Boba Fett ", not that much of a Star Wars nerd but that's what it reminded of. LOL

 

Definitely something you don't see every day. I like rifles that are unique, well thought out and represent their owners preferences rather than the latest fads.



Good luck on finding yourself an MRE Augee. I still hold out hope to do a build with an MRE one day. I missed one on the EE a while back and it still hurts.

I like it!!

I got to see some of these in the wild in east africa in thr early 2000s. Over the years I tried to describe that tube a few times and got some crazy looks.

AWESOME build sir. In my opinion your greatest homage.

I'm just impressed you found a Lonestar grip. THAT'S old school.

And I thought I was the last guy still using an old Armalite float tube!  I have one on my 20" bipod gun.

Did you add all the holes yourself, or were they already drilled?  I'm getting ready to add a rail section to mine for use with a bipod QD and am wondering how the fiberglass is to drill. I figure I'll seal the holes with thin superglue to prevent weave delamination.

That build makes mah pants tight up front!  I have the book and always thought CSM Lamb was badass before badass was invented with that rifle!

Badass, excellent job.
That is almost exactly what I am working on right now in terms of building my new duty rifle.
I am stuck on tube choice, as I am not as handy as you at working with the carbon fiber tubes

These are fiberglass, not CF - they weigh a metric shit-ton.  Mine is rifle length and on a bipod gun, it acts as ballast to help stabilize the rifle in high winds.  

I received the handguard as you see it from another member who said he picked it up in the late-'90s, and the holes, really individual threaded inserts were all already drilled, as was the FSB pocket and taper pin holes.

Honestly, while it's certainly not as light as many modern modular handguards, it actually feels quite light up front, I actually prefer a more nose-heavy carbine, and found this configuration to be a little "snappy" off-hand.  An AN/PEQ-2A up front would probably solve the balance issues - unfortunately, I don't have one available to put it.  

Hopefully I'll have a chance within the next couple of days to add some more detail photos, and a decent, if short, range report, as I was only able to fire forty rounds with it yesterday.

~Augee

That fiberglass handguard was made by Armalite.

oh ok, how would you compare the weight to the hogue aluminum tubes? I am thinking of going with the hogue and having an acquaintance of mine mill the space for a fsb

That's old school cool!  

Not sure, but I would guess heavier. Don't take that as gospel, though.

I was gonna say you're missing a big part of that build.

Very cool Augee... I'm jealous

Some new photos, and a couple of changes/additions:






I went ahead and installed the Gen. 1 RediMag to the rifle, not sure if I'll keep it, but it does, in my opinion, add to the "look" of these rifles:



The anodizing of the upper, though it generally looks gray in person, is showing up as a nice plum, not sure why, but the difference between the upper and lower are not quite as drastic to the naked eye.  


I also added the Uncle Mike's 1 1/4" Tri-lock QD swivel and installed a padded machine gun (M60) sling:






A better look at the Lonestar Ordnance "Stow-Away" A2 grip:






A good shot of the FSB pocket - you can see the grain of the fiberglass as well, and the attached rail section - I considered replacing the G2 with a 660 Classic, but I'm not sure how long that particular VTAC mount will remain anyhow, as I'm considering trying to figure out a way to direct mount the light to the tube or fabricate a KAC-style A2 VFG with the light mount ring, and re-locate the rail section to the 12 o'clock behind the FSB.  While I cannot afford a real AN/PEQ-2A, I do have an airsoft replica AN/PEQ-2A that I purchased for display on my first ever clone rifle - a clone of the rifle that I was "privileged" to carry on my first little "study abroad."  It's actually a pretty good copy with a red laser and LED flashlight where the IR components should be, but it is pretty much the exact same size and weight as the real article.  Needless to say, I never use it to shoot with, but it does look good on top of my "commemorative" M4 clone when I place it on display with the rest of my little doo-dads from far away places.  

On the edges of the FSB pocket, you can also see damage from installing and removing the gas tube roll pin - almost all those marks were already there when I got the rail.  Almost.  




Finally, you can see the holes, once again, with tool mark damage - to which I tried to add as little as possible in my own installation, for the FSB taper pins which you can just barely see the front pin through the hole - these holes are mirrored on both sides, allowing for both installation and removal.  




The only things left remaining to acquire or fabricate, at least until I locate a KAC MRE are:

- an old KAC style VFG with the integral light ring
- a "CAR-15" style "sawtooth" buttpad
- EOTech 551 or 511
- mash an ALICE pack strap to the M60 sling for "more VTAC action"

~Augee

Range Report:

Just some notes from test-firing:

I was only able to fire forty rounds last week to test for function, and do a very rough zero (POA = POI at 15 yard) with Independence 5.56x45, and American Eagle AR223 .223, both 55gr. FMJ rounds, the photos from which I've already posted.  

The carbine functioned without anything special to report, boring, really.  All four magazines I brought, all USGI pattern - two green follower, one tan, and one MagPul all fed, fired, extracted, ejected, and locked back when appropriate.  Not that I expected trouble.  

Once I'd functioned fired and zeroed, I did a couple of quick drills with my last twenty rounds, both suppressed and unsuppressed, just a controlled pair and failure drill offhand from the low ready at 15 yards in each condition.  

As expected - unsuppressed, the balance was not what I was used to.  While there have been a lot of comments made in this thread about the weight of the Armalite fiberglass FF tube, I frankly found it too light up front - it was snappy and jumpy compared to the carbines I usually use.  How much of that has to do with my "reversion" to the "old grip" method, I'm uncertain, but I'm tempted to say that it was minor.  With the suppressor, it was a completely different story - the weight of the NT4 up front (a brick shit-house of a can if ever there was one) completely tamed any propensity she might have had to buck while unsuppressed.  I didn't save any of the shot-timer data or target (I fired a whopping twenty rounds doing drills), unsurprisingly, for such limited conditions, split times, particularly for the failure drill were significantly faster with the suppressor, and groups tighter.  

As I've mentioned before - I think that the "deficiency" in balance is largely due to the lack of an IR laser mounted at the extreme end of the rifle as would typically have been installed on the weapon in its "natural" state, further leading me to consider adding a replica AN/PEQ-2A of correct mass, as this carbine is fully a "clone-only" build, and IMHO, ubiquitous to the "look" of this style of rifle.  Beyond that, discussion of preference in weight, balance, and configuration would lead us down a much different path, and I've replied to similar threads recently regarding my propensity for nose-down rifles.  

Incidentally, EOTech is still my preferred RDS, sample size of one and all - but I failed to realize before I left on my last year-long holiday, that I had never removed the batteries in my 552, though I had from the 553s that I did not take with me.  Imagine my surprise (or lack thereof? ) when I cracked open the battery compartment of my 552, two AAs palmed and ready to be installed, intending to "play Army" with my new toy, that not only had I failed to remove them before storage, but that they had neither leaked, nor corroded all over the battery compartment.  "But surely," the ARFCOMer deep inside of me thought, "the batteries must certainly be dead a full year, and who knows how much longer before that, later."  But to my great [un]surprise, when I hit that little "up" arrow, on came my optic, right as the day I'd left it, whenever that was.  

Anyways - NOT intended to be inflammatory, just sharing my experience of exactly one 552.A65 Rev. F model that I happen to own.  Still wanting to grab a 551 or 511 for her, however.  Something about the short EOs on these early carbines just looks "right."  

~Augee

My Armalite tube has an Aluminum insert on the front of the tube to protect the edge of the fiberglass and make a nice solid swivel stud mounting area.  IIRC I bought it in late '02 or early '03.  I wonder if it was removed from yours or added as a later design improvement before I bought mine?

advntrjnky

Here's a link to the original thread about these handguards with more pics pre installation. Awesome project Augee


http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=605375

I had one of those tubes years ago.  I sold it before I built anything with it.

This is so sick.

Well done!

MOAR pics please :)

Yeah, we need more pics, that is one of the coolest and most interesting builds I have seen in some time.
I have always been interested in the transitional rifles before and up to the official SOPMOD program.
That period shows you just how ingenious the operators were when they had to "design" and "make" their own high speed items.

That carbine is amazing, as well as the research you put into it!!

Have a question, has anyone heard of KAC selling a tube style rail in the past? It came up in a conversation with someone in the army in the 90s - early 2000s, he said it covered the FSB but was a tube in front of it not a quad rail. All he knew is it was made by "Nites" (how he spelled it) which I assume is Knights Armament.

Perhaps he was referring to the MRE-B?



Seems to more or less meet his description.

~Augee

That might be it. He is not a "gun guy" so he never really paid attention to names and other details.

Cool build.  I'm really surprised you find the Armalite tube to be light.  I have an unmodified midlength one with the aluminum ring up front and I find it to be ridiculously nose heavy.  Of course I'm using it with an old Denny's Operator barrel which only adds to the nose heavy feel.

It's not that I think the Armalite tube is light, just that the balance is too light in the front compared to what I typically prefer.  

I know I'm in the vast minority that even believes that such a thing as "too light in front" even exists, but I digress.  

The Armalite is definitely heavier than the comparable PRI CF tube, for example, however, I am also using a government profile barrel under the Armalite tube as opposed to the RO921HB I usually use.  

~Augee

awesome build!  looking at the kyle lamb pic though, i dont really see a FSB sticking through and his has vent holes in it..

The FSB is the "90 degree line" from the forearm going to the cargo pocket opposite the vertical grip.

Those are not vent holes, they are threaded inserts, just like Augee's forearm...

thats what i figured, just doesnt look right, although its not the best pic..and the vent holes look way bigger than the threaded inserts..

the hogue tube threads on, where as the armalite uses that outer locking ring you can see to hold it on...i think it would be pretty tricky(nearly impossible?) to get the hogue to line up with a FSB pocket..

Just saw this, I hadnt even thought of that and I already bought the hogue tube  I havent visited my friend yet though. What if I seat the tube all the way, mark it and cut, then reinstall with the FSB? If you dont think it will work, does anybody have a line on anyone producing/selling fiberglass tubes?

Not only do you make us envious with your carbine, but then you gotta go and show us your light on your 1911!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great thread.  Great thread.